Well this is it. Part 19 of Reading The Wheel of Time, covering Chapters 50 and 51. There will be a part 20 next week, but this is the section in which all the action goes down. I have to admit, I had a difficult time recapping this one; when a chapter is mostly action it just starts to feel like I’m just plagiarizing the actual narration, and there’s a lot, particularly in Chapter 51, that is both complicated and unexplained. Also, I went on a sidetrack thinking about the Green Man. His death made me so sad.
Everyone follows the Green Man, and Rand is in awe of him even as he wonders uneasily what the Green Man meant when he called him “Child of the Dragon.” He also notices Perrin walking as far away from the Green Man as possible.
Despite Rand’s uneasiness, however, the peace of the place affects him, dispelling his fear and drawing him in with its beauty. The “thousands of burning points” of pain that he felt as he struggled with his flight or fight urge against the worms are gone now, and Rand believes that it is the Green Man himself who put them out.
The Green Man walks through his beautiful groves, plucking flowers to weave into the women’s hair and helping seeds to sprout and plants to grow straighter and taller. Rand can tell by their expressions that Egwene and Nynaeve can feel the peace of the place, and he and Egwene share a smile as he thinks about how pretty she is, and how determined he is to protect her.
And then they reach the Eye. In the center of the forest is a simple stone archway, its entrance shadowed, its keystone bearing the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai, “a circle halved by a sinuous line, one half rough, the other smooth.” For a moment everyone is still, and then as Moiraine takes the garland from her hair and lays it on the branches of a bush, everyone begins gently suggesting their reluctance to enter, although Moiraine’s will is resolute. The Green Man tells them that about how the Eye was created by male and female Aes Sedai working together, as all the greatest works of the Aes Sedai were made. They made it because of the breaking of the World, and they “died, all, to make it pure.” The Green Man says that he was not made to guard the Eye, but that everything was breaking apart and that he was all they had, so he agreed to what they asked, and has kept the faith ever since. But he does not want to go in to see the Eye with them, because he can feel that his own end is linked to the Eye, somehow. But he says that when everything is over, he hopes to find a new place to make things grow.
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The Eye of the World
The Green Man leaves them (er, I mean, he departs) and they step into the archway, traveling down a tunnel with walls that glow with sparkling white light. Rand can tell that it is not a natural occurrence, but he also senses that it is benign. Still, knowing so doesn’t stop his skin from crawling. They step into a domed chamber, illuminated by glowing crystals, and in the center is an oval-shaped pool, perfectly smooth and clear and yet without a visible bottom. Mat kicks a rock into its surface and the stone sinks without a splash. The image of the rock distorts itself oddly as it sinks, growing larger and somehow almost transparent before it disappears. When Rand asks, hoarsely, what it is, Moiraine explains that it is the essence of saidin, the male half of the Power, enough to mend the seal on the Dark One’s prison, or to destroy it. She explains how no one living knows how the Eye was was made or why; they know only that the Aes Sedai who made it foresaw a great need, and that they worked through the taint to make it pure, knowing that such a feat would cost them their lives. And as she explains she watches the three boys.
Rand and Mat have thrown themselves backwards against the stone wall of the room, while Perrin has his axe out. Rand asks why she brought them there, and Moiraine’s eyes seem to pull at him as she answers that they are ta’veren, and that it is here in this place that the Dark One will strike, and here that he must be stopped lest darkness will cover the world. She leads them out again, Rand edging against the wall the whole way, unable to bring himself to take even one step closer to the pool, and he’s still shaking when they reach the sunlight again.
Outside in the fresh air, Nynaeve starts to upbraid Moiraine about something when they are interrupted by two hooded figures. Lan asks who they are and if the Green Man guided them; one replies that Mat led them there but that he is not the one they seek. They push back their hoods, revealing one man who looks older and more drawn than anyone Rand has ever seen, while the other wears a black leather mask with a horrible laughing face on it. The withered man introduces himself as Aginor, and his companion as Balthamel, explaining that Balthamel no longer speaks with his tongue, as “The Wheel grinds exceedingly fine over three thousand years imprisoned.”
Mat begins to say that the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, but Aginor cuts him off, changing “are” to “were.” He tells Moiraine that the seals are weakening, and that soon others of their number will also walk free. He tells them that there is no Lews Therin Kinslayer to save them now, and that they know which one they seek. There is no need for the rest.
Lan draws his sword, torn for an instant because Nynaeve and Moiraine are too far apart for him to step in front of them both, but the second he moves Aginor flicks his fingers and Lan is thrown back hard against the arch and falls to the ground, unconscious. Seeing this, Nynaeve draws her knife and throws herself at Aginor, but Balthamel catches her by the jaw and lifts her off her feet as she wails in despair. Rand stops Egwene from rushing to Nynaeve’s aid by tackling her bodily to the ground, crying out that you can’t fight the Forsaken, but Perrin and Mat draw their weapons and attack, only to be knocked down by an invisible hand.
Aginor tells them that if they abase themselves properly, he might let them live, and the boys and Egwene get to their feet in stubborn defiance. Aginor glances at the archway leading to the Eye, and tells them that now that he has found what he seeks, he may take the time to teach them a lesson. But before he can do anything the Green Man arrives, shouting that the men are not welcome in his place, and that they are not permitted to harm any living thing. Aginor raises a hand and the Green Man begins to smoke, bellowing in pain, but Aginor underestimates him and the Green Man catches Balthamel in his arms and squeezes him tightly. The two struggle, flames bursting from the Green Man’s face under Balthamel’s hands, but then creepers and nettles and fungus begin to grow on the man’s body, and when the Green Man throws him down, mushrooms and all sorts of plants that “love the dank” pull his body apart, leaving him just a dark forest mound.
But the Green Man goes down as well, half his head gone, burning leaves falling to the ground. As his head falls, he cups an acorn and it grows into a massive tree, huge and ancient, with limbs as big as a man, 500 years old or more, its roots curving around Nynaeve’s prone body where Balthamel dropped her. For a moment Aginor is stunned, then he snarls that it is time to end this.
Moiraine agrees, and with an outstretched hand she opens a flaming chasm beneath Aginor’s feet. But the Forsaken stands as if on air, and slowly, pushing against Moiraine’s power, he starts to advance towards her. Straining, she shouts for the others to run, and Mat, Perrin, and Loial all comply. But Egwene, Rand sees, is trying to help Moiraine, trying to use her own power. He grabs her and tells her to run, pushing her into motion, but suddenly Aginor turns toward her.
“Not her!” Rand shouted. “The Light burn you, not her!” He snatched up a rock and threw it, meaning to draw Aginor’s attention. Halfway to the Forsaken’s face, the stone turned to a handful of dust.
He hesitated only a moment, long enough to glance over his shoulder and see that Egwene was hidden in the trees. The flames still surrounded Aginor, patches of his cloak smoldering, but he walked as if he had all the time in the world, and the fire’s rim was near. Rand turned and ran. Behind him he heard Moiraine begin to scream.
Rand runs, uphill, and it’s like Moiraine’s screaming lasts forever, although Rand knows that it’s only a few moments, and therefore a few moments until Aginor follows him. Suddenly he comes to a cliff edge, and although he searches desperately for a hidden trail or some way around, there is nothing. He is about to try to retrace his steps when Aginor finds him. The Forsaken murmurs almost to himself that the man who brings Rand to Shayol Ghul will have rewards beyond mortal dreaming, but that Aginor himself has always had better dreams, and why should he share power or bend knee to Rand when he could serve the Dark Lord in death and it would make no difference to the spread of the Shadow. He mentions that he once stood in the Hall of the Servants and held his ground against the Lord of the Morning, Lews Therin Telamon himself.
Rand, meanwhile, is desperately searching for some way to escape, to get away from Aginor, when he suddenly becomes aware of a bright cord of light that stretches out from Aginor’s body and away into the distance, a cord that pulses and seems to give Aginor strength with each pulse, and yet beside it Aginor seems almost not to exist. The shining cord hums and calls to Rand, and one strand lifts away from the rest and stretches out to touch him.
Rand is instantly filled with warmth and although Aginor screams that Rand “shall not have it,” the two struggle over the power as it fills Rand, as he wraps the void around a small corner of himself and the rest is filled with Light. “Mine!” Aginor screams as flames burst from his mouth and Rand’s mind repeats the same desire to get away.
Suddenly he finds himself in a mountain pass, unable to think for himself, every bit of him subsumed with the Light, leaving him stunned in awe. Around Rand the tail end of battle rages, men and Trollocs and Fades fighting each other and then drawing back to regroup. He finds himself standing before the reforming ranks of the men, seeing that they are already defeated even as they ready themselves for a final charge. Some of them see him and cry out, but the shouts seem to come from a great distance.
Then Rand is facing the enemy, their ranks swollen and terrible. Some of them see him too, and the Dragkhar swoop down to attack; Rand can see them clearly, men’s faces and winged bodies bearing down on him as the heat of the Light burns through him and lightning strikes and kills each one.
Rand falls to his knees, clutching at grass that bursts into flame at his touch, trying to hold on to some part of himself, as he cries out “Please, nooooooo!”
With his screams the flames grow into a wall of fire that speeds away from him, and as he shouts “This has to end!” and pounds his fists,the ground is churned up into waves of earth that crash into and consume the Trolloc hoards, leaving behind only about twice the number of the human army. He yells again.
“The Light blind you, Ba’alzamon! This has to end!”
IT IS NOT HERE.
It was not Rand’s thought, making his skull vibrate.
I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.
“Where?” He did not want to say it, but he could not stop himself. “Where?”
The haze surrounding him parted, leaving a dome of clear, clean air ten spans high, walled by billowing smoke and dust. Steps rose before him, each standing alone and unsupported, stretching up into the murk that obscured the sun.
NOT HERE.
With shouts that the Light wills their victory, the human host charges the Trollocs. For a moment the little bit of Rand that has room for such thoughts is worried about being trampled by combatants, but the rest of him views such concerns as beneath notice, and he climbs the stairs in a timeless void until he comes to the door and chamber from his dreams. The door explodes apart when he touches it, and inside he finds the same setting, the twisted tortured faces, the fireplace, and the mirror on the wall in which he can now see himself perfectly clearly.
Ba’alzamon greets him, remarking that he suspected that Aginor’s greed would overcome him in the end. But it doesn’t matter because the long search is ended, and Ba’alzamon knows Rand now. Rand sees that Ba’alzamon has a cord of his own, as dark as Rand’s is light, and much thicker. He tells Ba’alzamon that he is tired of running and having his friends threatened, and Ba’alzamon retorts that it doesn’t matter if Rand runs or not, that he has tried both before and everything ends the same.
Rand answers that Ba’alzamon does not weave the Pattern, and that every trap lain Rand has avoided or overcome, and that he has tracked Ba’alzamon here after all. This seems to set Ba’alzamon back on his heels for a moment, but then he counters by suggesting that he has been responsible for the entire course of events, letting the right people live to send the right words to Rand’s ears to draw him there. Rand’s confidence wavers then, Ba’alzamon’s knowledge of the details is enough that what he says could be true. But the Light warms him, sends away his doubt, and the void remains steady in his mind. Ba’alzamon continues to insist that he wanted Rand to come here, alive and on his own, so that he could be brought to heel and made to serve. When Rand denies him, he shows Rand an image of Nynaeve and Egwene, and of another woman, one that Rand recognizes as his mother.
Again Rand denies Ba’alzamon, insisting that his mother is dead and safe in the Light, but the apparition of his mother tells him that the Lord of the Grave’s reach is longer than it once was, that he is her master now, and she can only obey him. She begs for Rand’s help, saying only he can save her, as Fades close around her and begin torturing her. Rand draws his sword, a sword made of Light, and a bolt shoots from its tip, cutting through the Fades like paper and destroying them all.
From the midst of the brilliance, he heard a whisper. “Thank you, my son. The Light. The blessed Light.”
The flash faded, and he was alone in the chamber with Ba’alzamon. Ba’alzamon’s eyes burned like the Pit of Doom, but he shied back from the sword as if it truly were the Light itself. “Fool! You will destroy yourself! You cannot wield it so, not yet! Not until I teach you!”
“It is ended,” Rand said, and he swung the sword at Ba’alzamon’s black cord.
The cord is severed and the recoil flings Ba’alzamon into the fireplace. The stone around them begins to crumble as Rand swings the sword toward him again, light shooting from its tip again and crashing into the Dark One, who throws up his arms in vain to shield himself. Rand can feel his own cord weakening and thinning, he is desperate for it to be ended, and then as Ba’alzamon withers and shrieks Rand feels himself falling away.
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The Ruin of Kings
No one knows the origins of the mythological figure of the green man. He is most commonly associated with the Celts, due to how numerous the depictions of him are in the ancient carvings, stonework, and jewelry of that people, but similar ancient images have been found in the Middle East and India, and many ancient cultures have imagery and deities that fill a similar role of symbolizing growth, rebirth, and man’s relationship with nature. In the case of the ancient Celts, representations of faces or heads was common, often peering out from vestigial carvings, and these images were probably influenced by and in dialogue with similar carvings from Mesopotamia and the Roman images of Dionysus. The Celtic and Roman imagery in particular went on to evolve to be common in Christian stonework, and images of the green man can be found in the walls and pillars of many churches in the U.K. and elsewhere.
Usually the green man is depicted as being made up of foliage, a single leaf with a man’s face or a man’s face with leaves for eyebrows, mustache, vines for a mouth, etc. Other times he is depicted as having foliage growing out of his mouth, his ears, or even his eyes, and some scholars have even named certain images of skulls sprouting foliage as depicting the green man.
Before Christianity, most religions said that man was born from nature, and thus the green man represents that tie. He is an icon of fertility, growth, and rebirth, and therefore linked also to death and decay. Since no one knows the true origins of the image, there is much room for interpretation, and the green man has been linked to Robin Hood, Puck, St. George, and many others. Ultimately we don’t know what symbolism ancient cultures ascribed to the green man, how much was symbolism and how much was simple decoration, and how connected the icon is across disparate cultures. But there is no denying the appeal of the character as one moves forward in history; the Renaissance saw a huge surge in the popularity of the vegetal face as a design motif, and because of his connection to the history of the country, the green man remains particularly popular in England.
But what does all this mean for Rand and his friends? I found it significant that we don’t know what the Green Man is; his species or even if he has a name of his own. No doubt that will come up in some later book, but for now, like the green man of our world, the truth of where he comes from is a mystery, and in a certain way, unimportant. Like nature itself, he just is, and I wonder how his power relates to the Power; saidin and saidar are the force which creates, and we know that Elaida used her power to make things grow. The green man does not create but only helps things along, as he puts it, so it’s a different power but one that interacts with creation in a meaningful way.
There is a paragraph where the Green Man stops to help a seed grow that strikes me as one of the most beautiful thematic moments all of The Eye of the World. The seed is in the center of the path, and the Green Man cups his hand around it, giving it shoots that bypass the rocks and dig down into the good soil below.
“All things must grow where they are, according to the Pattern,” he explained over his shoulder, as if apologizing, “and face the turning of the Wheel, but the Creator will not mind if I give just a little help.”
Rand led Red around the shoot, careful not to let the bay’s hooves crush it. It did not seem right to destroy what the Green Man had done just to avoid an extra step.
Moiraine’s mantra of “The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills,” is a useful one, but it doesn’t account for her determination to do all she can in the face of the Shadow. She works tirelessly, fights constantly, and risks everything for the duty she has undertaken. If the mantra was truly to be taken at face value, I think it would encourage idleness, suggest that fate is the only thing that matters, and this plays into the question I have been asking about free will and its place in the Wheel of Time universe. The Green Man’s philosophy seems to seamlessly blend both the understanding of the Pattern and of free will and personal responsibility. And it’s also just a beautiful sentiment.
How right the Green Man was to sense his own ending would be tied to the Eye! Not to the object itself, as it turns out, but to the conflict around him. The way that Balthamel, an agent of decay, is fed upon and destroyed by fungi and other plants that break down decaying matter is quite fitting, and shows that even in the act of killing the Green Man is not an agent of destruction but of rebirth. His own death also results in life and strength in another form. Seeing that fight, though, really makes me wonder how the Green Man got the older scar, and if another agent of the Dark One didn’t find the Eye and set this plan in motion in the first place.
Going back for a second to the Eye, I have to admit that it isn’t what I expected! Until Moiraine admitted that no one knew what the Eye was, I thought it was the center of the Wheel of Time. I think I formed that opinion back when Ba’alzamon first told Rand that the Eye would never serve him, and it was only in the last several chapters that I started to realize how mistaken my initial impression was. The foreshadowing of the Eye was done well in the earlier traveling chapters when Rand and the other Two Rivers folk saw the old wonders made by Aes Sedai long ago, like Whitebridge, and whose very composition is a mystery to the people of the present day. The modern Aes Sedai know enough to recognize pure saidin but they have no idea what such a pool, pure or no, would be used for, or how. This is because they cannot channel saidin, but also because there is no record left of the techniques that might have been used to make it in the first place.
Rand and the boys’ aversion to the pool of saidin makes sense, given what happens to male channelers most of the time. But I was a little surprised that Rand didn’t have any other thoughts about it, or any instinct drawing him towards it. Then again, was the Eye’s saidin the cord of Light that first Aginor, then Rand, was wielding? It almost has to be. For a moment I thought that perhaps Aginor was stealing Moiraine’s life force or something like that, but then I remembered the rule about saidin and saidar channelers being unable to use each other’s powers. But if the saidin in the Eye was what Aginor and Rand were using, then it’s going to be empty when Rand gets back to it, right?
There are so many questions raised by the events of Chapter 51 that I don’t know where to start. Rand is clearly being driven by a force beyond his own conscious mind; whether it be instinct, some kind of programming that the Aes Sedai who built the Eye put into it, or the will of the Light itself, I can’t tell. Rand’s use of the void to keep a little piece of himself separate was very interesting to me; it reminded me of the way Richard partitions his mind in The Wizard’s First Rule, to keep his core self from being broken under the Mord Sith torture. Like Richard, Rand doesn’t really have a full idea of what he’s doing, but his training from his father and his instincts guide him to make the partition. But that just brings me back to wondering how much of Rand is directing the proceedings and how much of what he does and even what he says isn’t Rand but someone, or something, else.
Lews Therin Telamon, perhaps? If being the Dragon means being reincarnated, then perhaps an earlier Dragon’s mind can possess the new body his soul now occupies, like how sometimes old Avatars step in to help the most recent one in Avatar: The Last Airbender. That would certainly make sense of the wild rage Rand experiences and the way he wields the Power without even feeling that he is doing it, never mind knowing how to do it. And if that’s the case, maybe Lews was the voice he heard in his mind.
Because seriously what was that? The only other explanation I can think of is that it’s the Creator themself talking. The “I WILL TAKE NO PART” bit kind of suggests that, the idea being that the Creator, like the Christian God, has left the fate of humanity and the world up to free will and the strength of a savior. And then the Creator just… makes him some steps to get to Ba’alzamon. Is Ba’alzamon the “it” or does that refer to something else?
I mean, I get that a lot of this is probably metaphysical and not literal, but either Chapter 52 is going to be full of a lot of musings and explanations or there’s going to be a lot left unanswered by the end of this book.
One question I am having a lot of fun pondering is how much of what Ba’alzamon says is roughly “truth.” I don’t actually believe him when he says that he orchestrated the clues that led Rand to the Eye and to Ba’alzamon himself; when he says that it’s a direct response to Rand reminding him that Ba’alzamon doesn’t weave the Pattern, and I think he’s just trying to save face and keep Rand from feeling that he has any agency in the proceedings. I think Moiraine’s belief that the Pattern itself led them to the right spot at the right moment is much more likely.
I also think that might really be Rand’s mom. At first it seemed like a standard tempter’s trick to show Rand the image of someone he loved and use it as a bargaining tool, but Kari doesn’t talk like that. If she was just an image used by Ba’alzamon to manipulate Rand, she would have begged him to surrender to save her, or to surrender to be with her. Instead she begs him to free her, which Rand does easily, and then she praises the Light. No deception of the Dark One would do that, I am certain. And since we know that Ba’alzamon can take control over the souls of people who have died—he tells Rand that he will do as much to him—it doesn’t necessarily mean that Kari was a Darkfriend or anything like that.
Speaking of Rand protecting people, back when he was having his fever dreams, specifically the one he had riding in Bunt’s cart, I wondered how much was standard nightmare and how much was some kind of vision, and I remember that he saw Egwene imprisoned by a Fade and shouted in his dream, “Not her!… The Light blast you, it’s me you want, not her!” and then at the end of Chapter 51 when he throws the rock at Aginor to distract him from Egwene; “Not her!” Rand shouted. “The Light burn you, not her!” Maybe not a vision, but certainly a nice bit of foreshadowing/call back to earlier.
Next week we will get some answers to some of my questions, find out who is still alive, and learn more about the mystery of the Eye. We are closing into the end of this adventure, dear reader, but that just means that we have gotten to the Beginning. See you next week for Chapters 52 and 53, the last part of The Eye of the World!
Sylas K Barrett once left a flower for the green man in Sherwood forest. It was a moving moment.
//Unfortunately I don’t think that a lot of the questions that Sylas has raised were ever answered. I wonder if this was as a result of a change in tack by RJ?.
We never (to my recollection) receive a satisfactory explanation for the all caps voice rand hears; whilst my understanding was that it was the creator I don’t think this is ever explicitly confirmed.
The purpose of the purified ‘essence of Saidin’ is never satisfactorily explained either, why Aignor would allow himself to draw too much into himself or be re-juvanated by it is also never really discussed.
Knowing what we do about Ba’alzamon and where Rand likely was in the final fight against Ba’alzamon I also never really understood whether the Kari Al’Thor we see is really a ‘spirit’, an illusion or a creation in T’A’R or some such.
I know Rand is a Taveren but the idea that he would Travel to Tarwin’s gap is also a little bit Deus EX Machina for me.
Also Poor Someshta, last of the Nym. We will see him again but I wish we had seen more of him.//
Sorry, Sylas lots of spoilers above and lots to get off my chest. Just reading your summary made the hairs on my arms and neck stand up like it used to when I read the books for the first (second, third, …, fifteenth) time.
Thanks for doing this read. It is wonderful to experience the books again through your eyes.
@1 Zero_G
// To your point about the pool of Saidin, it was explained that it’s sole purpose was to protect it’s contents (The banner and the Horn) against the female Aes Sedai that were going to be the only organized channelers around for the next couple thousand years, and for good reason because they definitely would have looted it by now if it wasn’t protected.//
Thanks again, Sylas!
@2 That spoiler does not appear to have gotten whited out….moderator help?
@@@@@2. JamesMB
You need to edit your comment to white out the text between // //.
Also
// Why use purified Saidin which would only protect against female channelers?
Rather than say a specific barrier like the one use in the Stone of Tear to prevent anyone but the Dragon from taking The Sword that is Not a Sword? //
@5 Zero_G – it’s because NEED is the key to gain access to their location. The Green Man and Moiraine both say that the only way to find the Eye of The World is through NEED, but not just “I need to have it” but a more pure, Save The World type NEED. // If any of the False Dragons that came before tried to gain access to the Eye of The World, assuming they even knew about it, it would have been a WANT in order to help proclaim themselves and they would not have been able to access it. Aginor and Balthamel knew where/how to access this area by other means, that we can safely assume that your average False Dragon would not know//
This brings back so many memories from my first read. As usual, great questions, Sylas. Most of them will eventually get answers. But not all.
@1:
\\THE ALL CAPS VOICE IS THE DARK ONE. WE SEE IT AGAIN IN AMOL.\\
\\Rand’s Traveling to Tarwin’s Gap is explained the same way that the rest of his channeling is – he’s LTT reborn, and LTT was driving the bus. Aviendha does something similar when she’s trying to avoid Rand in a couple books.\\
\\I”m 99% certain that Kari was just a trick by Ishamael, because it’s stated later that the DO has a limited window in which to snag the souls of the dead before they travel out of his reach. If he’d known he needed Kari 20 years ago, he wouldn’t have had to search for Rand at all. Also, that’s Ishamael, not the actual Dark One.\\
I could’ve sworn we learned the Green Man’s name in these chapters.
Sooooooooooo … will you be continuing on to book two after this? :)
Maybe. Or maybe the ta’veren effect caused Rand to do useful things by accident when he was actually just flailing wildly with the Power.
That voice is mysterious indeed. It seems like some kind of divine entity to me. These people seem to believe in three deities: The Creator, the Light, and the Dark One. Unless their beliefs are completely wrong, the voice may have been either the Creator or the Light.
”. . . either Chapter 52 is going to be full of a lot of musings and explanations or there’s going to be a lot left unanswered by the end of this book.”
Heh!
Well, there ARE a couple more books left to explore . . .
@The Mega Sage (#9) I will be continuing to book two! I’m working with our editor on a schedule but we’ll probably have a week or two of general musing/recap and then maybe a one week break and then on to The Great Hunt!
@Rombobjorn (#10) That’s a really interesting read that the Light and the Creator are two separate deities. I had thought that the Light is just another name for the Creator/the Creator’s power, but I kind of like the suggestion that the Light is a force on its own. Kind of like the Pattern is, not necessarily a personage but a force with its own will/designs.
@5:
Look at it asTwo Factor Authentication.
The password is NEED, and the pass code that gets texted to you is your ability to channel Said in. Then, the Green Man is there as a third factor.
@12:
I’m not sure I’m sold on the Light as a sentient force.
Opinion is divided on whether Ba’alzamon truly manipulated events to lead the Party to the Eye. I’m of the opinion he did, in order to gain access to the place. Like many of the more esoteric mysteries of the Wheel of Time, we get more information, but no clear answers to this and many of the questions you may have in this moment.
Sylas why you put this song in my head again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbhQURN9Szw
I don’t agree as well with the idea that there are three deities. Why not four, if that’s the case, including The Dark? There are two. The Creator and Shaitan. Light and Dark are the paths you follow depending on which one you serve.
@@@@@ 15, The Green Man always reminds me of this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m4mykKnGjw
@anthony Pero (#14):
I don’t exactly believe in the Light either, but many people in Randland clearly do. They pray to the Light like Cristians pray to their God. They certainly seem to hope that the Light will hear and act on their prayers.
It would require some extremely detailed control of events to send those messages through the Tuatha’an and the Ogier so long beforehand, and ensure that they would reach Moiraine’s party just in time to bring them to the Eye at the same time as Aginor and Balthamel got free. Does the Wheel weave as Ba’alzamon wills?
I’m pretty sure that the Light and The Creator are within the same scope, that the light comes from the Creator. When people in Randland say things like “Thank the Light” or “Walk in the Light, I take it the same way as when we say something like “Thank Heavens” or “Walk with God”. It’s all part of the same scope as the Creator
In fact // we do know that there are 3 constants, but only two o the are sentient. There is the Creator (and the light they’re associated with) the Dark One and Tel’aran’rhiod which I’ve always taken to be some kind of manifestation of the Pattern. //
I found the Green Man’s death exceptionally sad, and Balthamel’s death exceptionally satisfying.
At least Balthamel didn’t (couldn’t) monologue like the other villains here. Dudes, quit yabbering and do what you intended to do here. Oh, never mind. Monologuing is part of what you intended to do, a reward for your patience. Blight forefend villains should ever be pragmatic. *eyeroll*
“The Father of Lies has a honeyed tongue for unwary souls.” I’d say so, if Shadowspawn are honey. ///For Aginor, I mean. Not me. *cough* *wink* ///
When did Rand learn Trolloc band sigils? ///Was that Lews Therin?///
Here, Dragkhar are described as “soulless eyes in pale men’s faces and winged bodies that had nothing of humanity in them.” Later descriptions make their bodies (apart from the wings) sound more human than their faces. Contradictory information on Shadowspawn irks me, though it’s better than no information on Shadowspawn. ///If I were the one confronting Aginor, I would beg or force him to answer all of my questions before we fought.///
“Flowers are meant to adorn.” Uh, from a plant’s perspective, they’re meant to make babies.
Facepalm at the Green Man leading Aginor and Balthamel to the Eye. ///”Old friend and old enemy,” says Aginor. Yes indeed.///
///Rand, Egwene doesn’t need your protection.///
Fool of a Cauthon! Don’t propel rocks into mysterious places!
They said “the chosen one.” Literally. I shan’t be ashamed of doing so in my own writing.
@15: This song got stuck in my head again this week.
I don’t seem to be able to post. I can’t seem to post my other comment. Its disappearing every time. Weird. I’m going to try pasting it below this comment.
_________
@18:
Casual, cultural Christians also pray to “Heaven”. It doesn’t mean they believe that “Heaven” is a separate deity from “God”. Its a poetic expression. This seems the same to me. “Walk in the Light, may the Hand of the Creator shelter you.” They aren’t talking about two different sentient beings here.
And I’m not claiming that Ba’alzmon set all this up before Rand was even born in order to snare Rand specifically. I’m saying he set a snare a generation prior to snare someone. It ended up being Rand, because Rand is Ta’veren, and the Wheel willed it. And it backfired on Ba’alzamon.
It would be very, very difficult to have this conversation fully without bringing up events regarding everyone’s favorite traveler and storyteller, which is obviously a huge spoiler. Its not that Ba’alzamon was targeting Rand’s party specifically with the Ogier and Tuathuan tales. Its that he cast a net (one of many) that would eventually lead someone to rush there with a great need (save the world!), that he could use to gain access to the place. If it had happened earlier, than it would have been someone other than the Forsaken following them in. Its not like he doesn’t have other minions to choose from, after all. You know, the ones living in that city in the Blight full of Male Channelers, or a certain someone who has been a DF for years that is living in the Borderlands and can channel. More likely the former than the latter, seeing as we now have visual evidence that RJs notes confirm that Taim was indeed initially intended to be Demandred in disguise, and RJ later changed his mind.It being Balthamel and Aginor was more a matter of timing, and may have actually worked against Ba’alzamon because of Aginor’s ambition.
Later, Ba’alzamon most definitely did intentionally point them at the Eye (through the Boys’ dreams. Why send them to the Eye like an arrow? That’s either bad writing or a dead giveaway that Ba’alzamon was planting a seed. I’m gonna give RJ the benefit of the doubt here, for sure), and then had his minions follow them in.
Given what we find out in the next chapter (that the Eye was protecting some very crucial things) and what we find out MUCH later (That the Eye was serving as a lock to keep these things out of Aes Sedai hands until they were needed, based on a Foretelling), and given who passed along this account to the Ogier (Jain Farstrider, someone we find out later was a DF deep under Ishmael’s control), its reasonable to me to assume that Ba’alzamon was after the Horn of Valere. That’s likely why he ordered the raid on Fal Dara in the beginning of The Great Hunt – Ba’alzamon knows what the Eye protects. And he wants it.
I agree that the two deities are the Creator and the Dark One. People do pray to the Light, but I see this almost the way Christians see God the father and the Holy Spirit – essentially two manifestations of the same deity.
I personally believe the Dark One was hoping to get them to the Eye and tried to set things in motion to lead that way since he wanted to find the Dragon, but I think that was only ever his back-up plan since he had been attempting to discover the Dragon’s identity in the meantime //through the work of Ishamael, the only truly loyal Forsaken//. I think the fact that it worked in such a fortuitous way indicates that the pattern wanted the same thing, though for a different reason – the pattern wants the Dragon to proclaim himself.
@20: When did Rand learn Trolloc band sigils?
Lan showed them a bunch of badges for each clan earlier in the books. There’s no reason he couldn’t have shown them the rest off screen.
@20: Uh, from a plant’s perspective, they’re meant to make babies.
Plants don’t have a perspective, they aren’t sapient (some Blight flora notwithstanding, lol.)
@20: Facepalm at the Green Man leading Aginor and Balthamel to the Eye.
Do you mean Mat? They said they followed Mat and I assume that means the Dagger. Which… makes no sense. Unless it does. Perhaps Adrihol is just the latest manifestation of this opposing evil force?
@23: My mistake. When Lan said “If you’ve come to see the Green Man –” Aginor said “He guided us.” I inattentively missed that he pointed at Mat when doing so.
I don’t know if the Green Man sees plants that way. And I didn’t mean to imply sapience, but biological purpose. As I learned in a wonderful childrens’ book long ago, “The reason for a flower is to manufacture seeds.”
I would have liked to see Lan teaching Rand about Trolloc sigils. And hear exactly how Lan learned them. It’s not fair for characters to learn things about Shadowspwn that I don’t. *sulk*
23. Anthony Pero It was established back in Caemlyn that the dagger would attract Shadowspawn and deeply entrenched Darkfriends alike. That’s why Rand and Mat had so many encounters on their way to the capital after being separated from Thom.
@25:
I think you misunderstand my point. Aginor called Mat (the Shadar Logoth dagger) “an old thing, an old friend, and old enemy.” before he says “But he is not the one we seek.” I was responding to Aerona, who had quoted this passage, thinking it was referring to the Green Man.
Aginor was imprisioned when the evil of Shadar Logoth was created, so it makes no sense that Aginor would call the dagger an “old friend, an old enemy,” or even “an old thing.” Unless the evil of Mordeth and Shadar Logoth predates the Trolloc Wars, and existed in the Age of Legends.
@26. That always made sense to me, that Mordeth or an entity like him existed much earlier. In Moiraine’s account of how Shadar Logoth came to be, IIRC she says at some point a man arrived calling himself Mordeth who became the king’s counselor. No mention of his birth. So who knows how long he’s been around.
I too am having trouble posting. In the meantime, everyone made the points I was going to make!
Weird, I can do it if I edit my original post and add more. Maybe it’s the white text that is breaking it. But here is what I tried to post, with some additions:
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Agreed that the Light and the Creator are one and the same. Everything RJ ever said about the theology was that it was Manichean, with dualistic entities – the Creator and Shai’tan.
@5 – //Re: Why not protect the Eye like Callandor? Maybe several reasons. In the ancestral memories of the Way, Way Back ter’angreal in TSR, the Aes Sedai have received Foretelling(s) about what to do, and recruit Someshta to guard the Horn, the Banner, the Seal and the Eye. They have Callandor, but say “the sword must wait.” They also have young, inexperienced male channellers that are not mad yet, but are ticking time bombs. They knew that all the Aes Sedai participating in this ring to purify the saidin of the Eye would die in the process. Maybe they didn’t yet figure out how to ward the Eye like they warded Callandor… and maybe they elected to get the men and women to sacrifice themselves to remove the men from the playing field in the process. Then whoever was left was tasked with building the Stone of Tear and warding Callandor within it, while the Breaking raged on. //
@8 – re: your first conclusion. //I heartily disagree. I’ve always thought both the Creator and the Dark One speak in all caps. The Creator at the end of TEOTW, and again right before Rand enters the Pit of Doom in AMOL. Both times are in a “voice from the heavens” baptism-of-Jesus-kind-of-way. This is my son, with whom I am well pleased. Both times the content of what the VOICE says are very different from when the Dark One speaks in the prologue to LOC and later in AMOL during the battle of realities.//
We don’t know how many other messages Ba’alzamon may have sent out to spread the word about his trap, just the two that reached Rand et al. The Wheel weaves as it wills, but in the case it may also have helped that both the Wheel and Ba’alzamon wanted Rand to tap the Eye, but toward different ends. But there are very few coincidences in this world.
@20 – Re: Who taught Rand Trolloc sigils?
He read the glossary.
@21 – All of this. Except //Jain Farstrider I think was merely compelled within an inch of his life by Ishamael and sent on his way, and was not a DF ab initio.//
@26 – I think Aginor, Balthamel //and Ishamael// were bound so close to the surface of sealing that they were able to observe events during the intervening 3,000 years. So that’s how Aginor would know about Mordeth/Shadar Logoth. But it’s also possible that the evil of virulent mistrust is an ancient thing.
@28:
Perhaps, regarding Jain Farstrider. There was definitely Compulsion involved, I don’t doubt that. But he was also wrapped up in the murder of Lan’s family, somehow, wasn’t he? Not as the doer of the deed, but some other way. He seems to regret that as if it were his own action.
@27:
That’s certainly possible. Maybe even likely. But if so, its another example of threads put down in The Eye of the World that never get picked back up again. I don’t think there are actually as many as people think. I think most of them can be chalked up to viewing things from an inexperienced character’s viewpoint that we later gt from an experienced character’s viewpoint, but this would definitely qualify.
@29
I think I know what you’re referring to. In KoD, Chapter 6, //Olver and Mat are talking to Noal about Jain Farstrider. Noal says Jain was a fool, who left his wife to go gallivanting around the world, who “‘let himself be made into a tool by–‘ Abruptly Noal’s face went blank.” (obviously he stopped because of Ishamael’s Compulsion). Olver points out that Jain brought Cowin Gemallen to justice, which was first revealed by Agelmar in Fal Dara. Cowin Gemallen was the one who betrayed Malkier and Lan’s parents. Noal acknowledges that Jain did those great things, but is regretful about his wife: “But what adventure is worth leaving your wife to die alone?”
Anyway, I don’t think he’d be bound as a Hero of the Horn if he was a DF.//
Nice recap. I think you’ll find that powerful channelers (especially those with plot armor), just instinctively “do” things with the power in moments of crisis or stress. This is a Pattern that is repeated again throughout the series. As to the ALL CAPS VOICE, you’ll not find much clarification, ever. Popular opinion is that it is the Creator.
One thing to note is that RJ was not at ll sure he would be allowed to continue the series, or if it would sell well, thus the somewhat disjointed ending that provided a certain amount of closure, though obviously no full closure with all the author had in mind.
Lan counts Trolloc tribe sigils at the fires in Emond’s Field when Rand approaches Moiraine to Heal Tam.
Mordeth learned his dark ways to fight the dark somewhere. His sources might be what Aginor meant.
@31:
That is likely what I am remembering, and not at all what I was thinking! I dunno. Volunteer, or voluntold… I would have preferred to see Ingtar riding with the Heros of the Horn. Its possible my desire to see a Dark friend fully turn and be numbered amongst the Heros ever since that second book has colored my perception of that storyline. But I also think, as with many things in the WoT, RJ intentionally left wiggle room in the interpretation of the narrative.
*checks online references* Right. Rand watched Lan identify a Ko’bal badge on a corpse in the Two Rivers, and Lan brought Dha’vol badges back when scouting in Shadar Logoth. I guess he mentioned the Dhai’mon at some point off-page. The glossary wouldn’t have helped, as it sometimes names the principal bands but I don’t recall it naming their sigils. ///Other sigils are mentioned later, but I think the only big in-text rundown of known and unknown sigils is during the attack in KoD when LTT was in control of Rand.///
Yes, I’m being recklessly nitpicky on a minor matter. But only because it’s about Shadowspawn. I don’t give a herring’s tail about much else in WoT.
I think alot of the conversation about whether Ba’alzamon was telling the truth about manipulating events kind of ties into the whole Nature of Evil(TM) question in WoT. Especially when it comes to darkfriends and the Forsaken. Also somewhat with the whole destiny/fate vs. free will question. People mostly turn to the dark path in WoT mainly due to their selfish nature, though occasionally for other reasons. At the same time, the Pattern seems to do everything it can to maintain a balance of good/evil. So often times what happens is that evil/selfish actions are turned against the person them and eventually do good in spite of themselves.
The more evil the action, the more often things act against those actions to balance that out, especially when there’s Ta’veren involved. So Ba’alzamon may have tried to push events and fate towards the showdown at the Eye of the World for his own selfish motives, but the way it works in WoT is that, rather than countering evil actions directly to undo them, the Pattern pushes events in an equally opposing way so that the showdown happens, but there’s a chance for free will to turn it to either good or evil, and a balance remains. Which is why it wasn’t just Rand there, but the whole gang to try and balance out the group that showed up for the dark side.
I thought that I’d post an excerpt from the WoT interview database on http://www.theoryland.com. It’s about religion in Randland and about the Whitecloaks. Be careful if you want to browse through the database yourself because it’s full of spoilers for later books.
Interview: Apr, 2003
Budapest Q&A (Verbatim)
Rhynn
Are there any religions in the world of the Wheel of Time?
Robert Jordan
No. No religions, no churches: that will change in the next set of books, not in this, but where religion becomes in some ways preeminent, but…
Mort
[interrupts] Oh, is that a spoiler?? No, no!
Robert Jordan
No, that’s not for the Wheel of Time at all, and may change somewhat, as these things do. But the reason is this: I’ve always believed that our religious rituals our attendance at temples, or churches, or whatever is, in part, a reaffirmation of our faith, and a reaffirmation of our belief, a strengthening of our belief in something that we cannot see. And we do these things in order to strengthen our belief in what we cannot see. God, Allah, whatever…but, in this world, it is a world that…as if we had…prophets walking around…performing miracles. The One Power can be channeled. Occasionally men show up channeling the One Power; the Aes Sedai have been there for 3000 years.
Question
But the Creator does not interfere!
Robert Jordan
The Creator does not interfere, but there is clear evidence of the theological doctrine.
Question
Of the unseen.
Robert Jordan
Of the unseen. As far as it is believed, of the existence of the Creator: Here is the One Power. Here is evidence of everything we believe. There is therefore no need for anyone to undergo rituals to reaffirm or strengthen their belief because it is manifest every day. If we really had prophets walking among us, performing miracles and healing people and raising the dead—and this was a matter of every day that somebody might walk down the street and say ‘In the name of…’ and lay their hand on you. ‘In the name of God be healed,’ and your wounds are healed. Or, ‘In the name of God rise up and walk,’ and your dead brother, just died of cholera or whatever rises up and walks—I believe that organized religion would vanish within a generation, or at least become a fringe within a generation, because there would no longer be a need for most people to reaffirm their belief in God, or to strengthen their belief in God, or Allah, or whatever else their religious belief is. It would be manifest in every day life.
Wood Sun
And how about the Whitecloaks? I mean they look like some sort of religious sect.
Robert Jordan
Which?
Question
(two girls in unison) The Whitecloaks!
Robert Jordan
The Whitecloaks? Well, they’re meant to look as a religious sect. They began as, an ascetic organization dedicated to preaching against Darkfriends, trying to convince people by example that they should not become Darkfriends. And during the War of the Hundred Years they became a military organization. They are patterned on the Teutonic Knights, a touch of the German SS, and…
Wood Sun
[interrupts] And the Spanish Inquisition?
Robert Jordan
A touch of the Spanish Inquisition. (laughter) They are in short anyone who believes that they know the Truth—the Truth with a capital T. They know the Truth so well, and its so clear to them that if you don’t believe that truth, then it becomes obvious that you are evil.
So much good analysis here friends! I don’t have much to add but I will say that flowers are meant to create seeds, but they are beautiful to attract pollinators, so I think that it is fair to say that they are also meant to adorn. “None mind, as long as you do not take too many.” Leave enough blossoms for the plants to be able to reproduce, and they are happy to share their beauty for other purposes.
That interview by Robert Jordan is certainly enlightening, but I think it misses one factor – while ceremony and rituals are certainly about reenforcing belief, and doctrine, things not necessary in a world where believe in the Creator and the basic metaphysical tenants of the world are self-evident, there is another reason that people congregate within a religion.
Community and communion.
Not communion as in the Eucharist, but communion with one another. Fellowship. This also isn’t necessary in a world where everyone believes the same thing. You don’t need to reinforce the sense of purpose, of we, that you do when you are a small sect within a large world that believes differently from you. This identity is built-in within the world of the Wheel of Time, with one exception: Darkfriends.
There is no doubt that darkfriends must function as both a religion and a secret society, that they have rituals, their own language and nomenclature that is separate from general society, etc, in order to affirm a sense of identity, culture and purpose.
So, I think its fair to say that organized religion does exist in the WoT–in the service of the Dark One.
Sylas, I’ve also always thought that that was actually Kari al’Thor, and still think so. @8 brings up an interesting point //that the Dark One must snatch a soul at the moment of death, and can’t do so later// but I think there are several possible explanations here. One may simply be that RJ had not yet worked out these mechanics fully yet, which we occasionally see at this stage of the series. Two other explanations may be possible that work in-universe, but are spoilery.
1) The rules are different //for snatching a soul to be reincarnated into a body as opposed to “borrowing” it to pull into a dreamshard to tempt a Messiah. Like the Heroes of the Horn that reside in tel’aran’rhiod, it’s possible that ALL souls live in some hidden area of TAR and are spun out as the Wheel dictates, and thus may be available to pull into a dreamshard.//
2) Or, instead of actually being Kari’s soul, it was //merely a faithful reproduction of her created in tel’aran’rhiod or Ishamael’s dreamshard to legitimately think and act like the real Kari to tempt Rand. This would explain why she thanked the Light… because the real Kari would have. Admittedly this thought was just inspired by all the recent madness in Westworld.//
@39’s comment is very perceptive: it does seem like “Darkfriend-ism” fills a social role in this world comparable to that of a socially disfavored but functioning religion. A comparative religion scholar would recognize it as one: it has communion, it has //creedal statements and rituals which we will see eventually//, it has a doctrine of reward after death.
I also want to expand on the (I suspect intentionally) cryptic statement from the interview, “The Creator does not intervene, but there is clear evidence of the theological doctrine”. This is such a hard sentence to interpret that I’m inclined to think that it has to be parsed out. I suspect strongly (out on a limb here) that what RJ was saying was “We frequently hear the statement ‘The Creator does not intervene’, but there is clear evidence that this is an in-world theological doctrine [as opposed to an absolute reality].”
When Moiraine says at the inn (paraphrase) “If I did not know it was impossible, I would think the Creator was taking a hand”, I strongly suspect that RJ is hanging a lampshade. Moiraine is highly educated, but she isn’t omniscient. She is expressing her personal beliefs, which seem to be in line with mainstream theology if not with mainstream practice, given that prayer to the Creator is common //and Moiraine herself is shown to engage in sincere religious ritual to a larger extent than many characters in New Spring; her prayer to the Creator for Tamra’s rebirth isn’t logically consistent with absolute deism//. It wasn’t Ba’alzamon organizing the meetings at the inn; it was actually the Creator, who I am also completely convinced is the owner of the ALL CAPS VOICE. //And, circling back to the end, I believe is manifest as Nakomi, who absolutely “takes a part” for both Rand and Aviendha.//.
P.S. At some point, Sylas, once you’ve read a LOT further you also have to seek out the epic parody version of WoT written under the fanfic name “Isam”. Then we can have a whole other discussion about the BIG ALL CAPS VOICE.
@41:
I’m not sure I support your expanded version of RJs statement, because he goes on to talk about the use of the One Power. And taken together, it appears that the context of his statement is that the “clear evidence” of the doctrine is the One Power.
As I understand it, RJ said in that interview that the people of Randland believe that the One Power is evidence of the existence of the Creator.
I’m not buying that argument though. If a world can exist without a creator, then I don’t see why the One Power couldn’t also exist without a creator. The fact that the One Power can be channeled shows that some kind of power source exists, which they call the True Source. It doesn’t imply a creator who has created the world. And if one believes that nothing can exist without a creator, then it must seem like the world itself is evidence enough, with or without magic power.
But if the author tells us that his characters belive that, then I’m quite ready to believe that they believe that. It’s not like it would be the only example of an irrational belief.
In every installment of this there comes a moment where I start grinning because the speculation becomes a bit much :-)
The EarlyInstallmentWeirdness and the character-centric epic form of the series really throws you for a loop. Except small things here and there, and about the voice in Rands head. It always makes the Creator seem like a colossal asshole to me. “Deal with your own shit.”Gee, thanks for the help. Why even speak at all then, prick?
The series is a character-centric epic, so we see through the viewpoint characters eyes, and learn about their opinions. And it is an epic, a big story, and small things might seem big in the moment. // The Eye was just there so Rand had access to a big reservoir of untainted Saidin, so he could destroy the shadow army at the Gap, and fight against Aginor and Balthamel, who only came there because of him, and him being there only because of the Eye, whose purpose is the one stated above. Jordan loved circularity :-)
The Green Man is much more profane than you think, we learn a bit more about him in THE BEST SEQUENCE IN FANTASY EVER! //
Aerona: @24 + @35: I have to admit, I find your Brownish obsession with this stuff mildly disturbing. I can’t remember exactly off the top of my head, but I’m sure I remember // Moiraine or Siuan bemoaning how the Browns want to know everything, and especially things they shouldn’t. You will now and forever be the incarnation of Verin in my head, and for the life of me I can’t decide if that would be flattering or insulting. // Either way, it’s terrifying to me!
mp1952 + fernanden: @27 + @28: I’m almost entirely convinced that // Mordeth was really Ishamael on one of his sojourns from The Bore. // Just like I’m also almost convinced that // ALLCAPS is the DO. //
@44, regarding the Green Man, //profane? Please explain.//
Regarding the Eye, //I think it also serves to force Rand, jump-starting his channeling strength. The Gap gave him a convenient outlet to prevent him from destroying himself. Without it, he’d have had to develop his powers slowly, which he probably wouldn’t have time to do, with full exposure to the taint and all the attendant complications that would follow. The fact that he was able to kick things off with a massive infusion of taint-free saidin was probably crucial to his ability to keep it together even as much as he did. Without the advantage of the Eye, he probably would have hit his darkest point earlier and gone full evil in the end, assuming he didn’t simply die. It may also have done something akin to inoculating him against the taint, since pure Power seems to have inherent restorative properties when it doesn’t exceed your capacity to contain it and destroy you itself. //
@@@@@Porphyrogenitus: profane as in worldly, non-metaphysical, not as in spouting oaths and expletives. I guess without the context the spoiler isn’t needed, by the way.
//I never get why people have to interpret so much that isn’t supported by the facts given. Maybe he could “jump start” his abilities, but he could have done that without the Eye just a bit later (2 or three books). Furthermore, this were obviously Lews Therins memories, Rand is on that level maybe after leaving the waste, but probably not even then. I agree with him being able to use untainted Saidin for this feat keeping him sane longer, I just forgot to write it above :-) The inoculation is, again, something that just seems far fetched for me (if what the heroes go through seems far fetched, I would rather say that heroism has healing properties). And it reeks of disregarding Min, who kept Rand sane as long as he was (Min therefore one of the most important characters in the series, just not made explicit).//
And I forgot: My point was more that the storytelling is heavily coloured by the viewpoints and opinions of the characters and being an epic (epics can be quite boring at times, in this case retroactively), less what I gave as an example.
@45///*grinning widely* Verin became one of my favorite characters when she called Trolloc script in human blood “interesting,” and remained wonderful.// I was probably more disturbing in my years of ponderings on the Dragonmount forums.
@47: ///Do you mean “profane” in the sense that he was one of multiple human-made constructs designed to facilitate crop growth, not any type of deity or a true ‘force of nature.’?///
//Mordeth can’t be Ishy. We meet Ishy while Mordeth posesses Fain.//
//Channeling clean saidin before being exposed to the taint can’t be a protection. The AOL AS were affected by the taint despite their long previous channeling (often centuries).//
@AeronaGreenjoy: Jep. Sorry, for the inexact use of words, english isn’t my first language. //“Profan”// isn’t much used in german, but I mostly came upon it with the meaning I used.
@birgit: Good point. I didn’t even think about that. //Also, Lews Therin and The Hundred Companions went insane on the spot. If that wasn’t from being near to the bore, but from the heavy use of now tainted Saidin, then the Eye really was for Rand to not turn on the spot. What he does against the darkspawn army is on the level what he does in the Stone with Callandor, I reckon.//
@49, now I’m curious, who else is Dragonmount alumni? I was GraendalZooEscapee.
I was Sila Darklover, mostly active from 2005 to…2010 or thereabouts.
Ah yes, I did forget about some of this early installment weirdness. Everybody has pretty much confirmed what else I would have said here regarding the all caps voice, or how much Ba’alzamon was intending. i also think he was casting out feelers and manipulating events – he can play a long game.
As for Kari, i was never sure how I felt about that. I think part of me just wants to believe it was an illusion, because the idea of a universe where the DO can grab you after death regardless of your life is just too chilling.
Jordan’s musings on religion remind me a bit of how Tolkien also approached it (and I think mentioned in some of his letters) – aside from a few prayers Faramir says in a meal scene, there’s no need for an outright religion (and of course Tolkien himself was a very religious man, so he wouldn’t have been anti-religion himself) because they live in a world where the metaphysical realities are much more apparent.
No one discussing the forsaken mentioning that Mat brought them there?
“Facepalm at the Green Man leading Aginor and Balthamel to the Eye” – What? did I miss something? he actually led them to the eye? But he confronted them. Old friend maybe before they became Forsaken and enemy since then?
@21 -” Taim ” – //is he really a “new” cast to this game? I know it says so somewhere, but it would fit the respinning wheel of time if such a crucial member would be a reborn one, or something like Mat//
oh and about Lan on previous chapter being commented a lot on being a badass/Chuck freaking Norris/Kung Fu Terminator – him being taken down with a finger is… not badass on his account when it concerns forsaken, but //as he killed of Demandred I guess he’s still dangerous with a capital D//
@21 – “Jain Farstrider, someone we find out later was a DF deep under Ishmael’s control” WHAAT? A what under who now? guys you’re already all ahead of me still, but someone? someone tell me what this is about???????????
@56 – I think other people debated the comment a 21. I don’t think //he was a DF, just that he was under compulsion.//
Chapter 51 is one of the coolest and most frustratingly elusive passages in the entire series. I’ve read the series, the re-reads, forums and everything multiple time and there are still things that just plain don’t fit with the rest of the series! Oh well. It’s still a fun read, but for me, chapter 51 is a bit… apocryphal in WoT cannon.